‘And Just Like That’ Writers Expect a Big Reaction to That Episode

‘And Just Like That’ Writers Expect a Big Reaction to That Episode

[This story contains major spoilers from season three, episode nine of And Just Like That, “Present Tense.”]

And Just Like That duo Julie Rottenberg and Elisa Zuritsky were bracing themselves for the fan reaction when they spoke to The Hollywood Reporter ahead of this week’s episode.

That’s because the writers, executive producers and longtime collaborators on the HBO Max revival series co-wrote the ninth episode of season three, “Present Tense,” that released on Thursday — the episode that just broke up Carrie (Sarah Jessica Parker) and Aidan (John Corbett) for the third time.

This time, it’s really over. And Just Like That even licensed “How Did It End?” to drive home that point in the final moments. “We wouldn’t pull that Taylor Swift song out for just anything,” Rottenberg tells THR, pleased about Swift approving the use of her The Tortured Poets Department: The Anthology hit (the singer-songwriter’s own breakup song, rumored to be about ex Joe Alwyn).

Zuritsky adds about Carrie and Aidan, “We’re not going for ambiguity. It feels pretty permanent.”

Rottenberg and Zuritsky had joined the original Sex and the City series for season four, which was the season when Carrie and Aidan broke up for the second time, ending their engagement. The first time, of course, was after Carrie cheated on Aidan with Big (Chris Noth), the man she would eventually partner up with until his untimely death in the first-ever episode of And Just Like That.

Both the second and now the third Aidan breakups circle back to Carrie cheating. Even though this bump in Carrie and Aidan’s long-distance relationship road comes after Aidan himself recently admitted to the misstep of falling back into bed with his ex-wife Kathy (Rosemarie DeWitt), this time the tortured lovers ultimately agree to call it quits because Aidan — who is jealous over Carrie’s charming neighbor (played by Jonathan Cake) — quite simply, has never, ever gotten over Carrie cheating on him with Big.

So yes, Rottenberg and Zuritsky are expecting viewers to react to this big breakup, also because they’ve been following along with the heated discourse around season three. Below, the pair who also worked with Parker on HBO’s Divorce, take THR inside the writers room’s decisions to close the Carrie and Aidan chapter, while also revealing how the actors reacted to saying goodbye, how the series shifts from here on out (with three episodes remaining), and why they aren’t surprised that everyone has a lot to say about season three.

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How’s it been going with season three from your vantage point?

JULIE ROTTENBERG As you probably noticed, [the conversation about the show] is very, um, lively!

Fans have a lot to say.

ROTTENBERG Everyone has feelings. It’s the one thing everyone can agree on: Having strong feelings about the show.

The fans have had feelings about every iteration of this franchise. It’s good that the conversation is still going on, right? People are watching and talking about it.

ROTTENBERG Yes.

ELISA ZURITSKY We know how rare that is. I think everybody is grateful to be part of the conversation.

I am happy that we are chatting for this particular episode.

ROTTENBERG What’d you think?

I didn’t see Carrie and Aidan’s breakup coming. I do want to hear it from your mouths, though, that this is really the end for them. It feels like it’s the end.I’m curious how you arc it out in the room. When you were breaking the season, did you know you were headed here, or did it happen organically as you were plotting out episodes?

ZURITSKY It’s a little bit of both. There are some things we really arc out in the beginning that we know, big picture, where they are going, and then there’s lots of little stuff we discover along the way. But with Carrie and Aidan, a really big part of our writers room experience was carving out their journey.

It feels pretty permanent. But, you know, life is long. Who knows? But, frankly, I don’t think any of us were ready for Carrie to ride off in the sunset with anyone, yet. When we brought Aidan back in season two, we felt really strongly that they would have a fairytale season of reuniting after all these years and finally being free of other obstacles. This season, we set out intentionally to put them in the real world and take them out of fantasy land: Here are all the real obstacles that still exist when you don’t have lovers waiting in the wings. Families are pretty huge obstacles. We were excited to dig into that and see what skeletons it brought out.

And it took us a while build to this. We knew we didn’t want either one of them to betray the other. We talked many, many hours about how villain-free, victim-free breakups happen, and hopefully, we built one. [Writer’s note: After Aidan shows his jealousy over her neighbor and exposes his lingering Big resentment, Carrie ends it and Aidan accepts that. They hug goodbye.]

ROTTENBERG At the beginning of the writers room, we very intentionally build out as much as we can in terms of the big moves of the story. Sometimes along the way we realize, “Let’s rethink that big move, maybe we should go another way.” But in this case, we knew we were building toward an end for them — as painful as that was. And we all agreed, as Elisa said, that you didn’t want a replay of something that cost them their relationship in the past. We wanted it to be systemic; that almost baked into the DNA of their relationship is this wound they can’t escape.

I know that all of you in the room have very strong feelings about these characters, and so do the viewers, which you’re very aware of as you’re writing, I’m sure. How many writers were Team Aidan and fighting against this? Did you have to convince people and bring them to the other side?

ROTTENBERG That’s such an interesting question. I’ve talked about this publicly, but when we joined Sex and the City in season four, and when I heard that Michael [Patrick King, showrunner] wanted to bring back Aidan, I was totally opposed to it. I was like, “Why are we bringing him back? Even if I love him as an actor and as a character, they played it out. They’re not meant to be together. I don’t need to see him again.” Then in the process of arguing that side, that allows Michael and anyone else in the room who disagrees to argue why we should bring him back. And of course, eventually, I got on board and saw all the juicy, exciting possibilities bringing him back could give us as writers. And then we did break them up in season four, episode 15’s “Change of a Dress.” So I will admit, I did have a hand in that.

So you’re the one!

ROTTENBERG (Laughs.) Well, I had some help. There were accomplices. But now, weirdly, having brought him back in And Just Like That, I was really rooting for him. I believed in them more. This is the first time I’m thinking about this fully, but I realized in the process that I felt like they had became that couple who are the friends you go out on double dates with that you can’t imagine not being together. So after having been so resistant to it the first go around on Sex and the City, I felt like we earned the right to have them together and tell their stories with all of their war wounds [in And Just Like That].

It’s interesting to hear you say that because here I saw shades of the Aidan who was a little annoying who held her back, and the Carrie who couldn’t be totally herself with him, which is why we wanted her with Big. But now Big’s not here. She’s fully on her own again.

The fans seemed to pick up on the direction you were going because people were shouting that you were “ruining” Aidan, and critical of the choices he was making this season. I’m curious about your conversations with Sarah Jessica and John Corbett about tarnishing that Aidan legacy. He was put on a pedestal when he came back, and now his glow is sort of gone.

ZURITSKY Because a lot of us are parents — John isn’t a parent, but Sarah Jessica is — there was a lot more empathy from inside the house, so to speak. We didn’t feel as if we were tarnishing him as much as humanizing him. I remember reading a lot of buzz after episode four when she visits him. It was the most serious, intense episode, there was a lot of criticism about his attitude about Adderall. There were even people saying, “He’s abusive!” I’m in the world of parenting and ADHD meds, having conversations with couples about these things. There are really strong feelings that really good people can have about what is right for their kids. So I felt that we were making him human. I suppose I felt as if maybe we were taking him off a pedestal that we had created for him. We had made him into a version of Mr. Perfect, with a few flaws in the early days that some people saw and some people didn’t. But I think in this very real-world scenario, we really tried to keep both sides of their streets clean so they could be making very honest, well-intentioned decisions with each other. And I don’t remember blowback from the actors about plot lines. Do you remember that, Jul?

ROTTENBERG Well, to the actors’ credits, and you’ve spoken to them, they all have incredible trust and respect for the writers and the process of writing. It’s a rare situation where we’ve known each other for decades. We worked hard to build that trust and respect with the actors, and it’s very mutual. So I would say they are always in pursuit of being true to the character without necessarily protecting the character. As Elisa said, and I agree, I saw Aidan as more human. As a parent with any number of similar situations to Aidan, to some degree, I related to him feeling pulled in all directions.

I know there are some people who judged him more harshly than I might have expected or realized. And it’s what we learn as soon as we put it out into the world. It’s fascinating. But as far as John and Sarah Jessica go, I think they believed in the writing and in the process, and they did it justice in the performance. And I think it’s because we really didn’t want either of them to be a “villain,” but to realize they could love as hard as they’ve loved each other and still not be able to make this relationship work.

When I spoke with Sarah Jessica at the beginning of the season, she spoke so highly of John as a scene partner, and how less scenes together because of their long-distance storyline was a bummer. Can you go behind the scenes of filming their breakup scene? What were they like after they wrapped, did they hold onto that goodbye hug? And did either of them add anything to the scene or make character tweaks that worked?

ZURITSKY I can speak to their emotional states in both of the breakups that Julie and I have had a hand in writing and shooting with them. They were similarly emotional. The first one at the fountain on Sex and the City [in season four], they were both extremely emotional and upset. I think they were a little bit more angry at us then for doing it. I remember it being a very long night. It must be very hard to imagine from the outside, but we take our job as writers really seriously; the actors are in it and they’re living it, so I would say in both scenes, there was a lot of extra contact, a lot of extra support and emotional release for everyone.

This breakup, I think, was less fought against, but very, very poignant. Poignant because they do love working together so much. They are so natural together and they know that’s a difficult chemistry to find in the world of actors. When else can you have a 20-year relationship with your scene partner? It’s so unusual.

ROTTENBERG When we wrote and filmed Carrie sitting down for lunch with Aidan, I wanted to believe in that moment they could still work it out. When he says, “I thought a lot about what you said, and you’re right,” there is nothing like the relief of someone you’re really angry at apologizing and acknowledging that you’re right. Usually, that’s 99 percent of the discussion. We wanted to believe that maybe we could still salvage this. There was a line John wanted to add referencing Duncan [Carrie’s writer-neighbor played by Jonathan Cake] when he says, “Sorry I’m not a writer like you and Sherlock Holmes.” It was kind of a diss. Sometimes the actors pitch things that we try and in this case, it really helped her, because she was like, “Do you hear yourself?” It was another tell that he was so threatened and had all this resentment built up. That’s an example where the actors really gave us a gift.

When shooting this scene, we felt like we’ve been down this road before. We’ve all seen their breakups. We wanted it to feel like they are in a new place, even if these patterns are old and the buttons they’re pushing are so familiar. They’ve never been in this particular moment, and having come so far, we wanted to make sure this felt different from every other breakup, even if it had many of the same ingredients. Mostly, that they were mature enough even in the pain and wounded feeling when he says, “I really thought we would make it this time.”

I remember John early on talking to Michael [Patrick King] when Michael pitched him that this is going to be the way it ended, and John said that line to him. I do think it’s what we all wanted. And because John and Sarah Jessica have such incredible chemistry and love working together, that compounded it. I realize now that when I joined the show in season four of Sex and the City, I didn’t know these people. I’d never been on a set with them. This time, it added to the bittersweet feeling we all had of knowing it had to end this way but feeling the loss.

To drive the breakup home, you then cue up Taylor Swift’s “How Did It End?” Is she a Sex and the City fan?

ROTTENBERG Michael really knew he wanted to use this song, and that really helped. That was like a North Star. And yeah, all I know is we wanted it and we got it, and we know Taylor has to approve those things. So I hope Taylor is happy with the way it was used.

It was an empowering ending to the episode, because we then see Carrie going out not on a date with her neighbor but with her girlfriends — which is the thesis of this show, as you have reminded us over decades, about her true soulmates. The fans are going to have a big reaction to all of this. Where do you go from here? What does the show become post-Carrie and Aidan?

ZURITSKY Carrie on her own is always an exciting and, in some ways, daunting challenge for us. Like, “OK, what’s next?” There are only a few episodes left. [There are three more.] Without giving anything away, it certainly felt like a shift.

Can I ask, what was your reaction to this episode?

I was thinking if she were with Big, Big would have said, “Go work on your book. See you later, kid.” And that’s why they worked. I think seeing her in the end being sad but OK made me feel OK about it. She’s not grieving like we’ve seen her grieve past relationships.

ZURITSKY We asked ourselves many, many times, “Does this end them? If they were real people, is this enough to end them?” And we came back to the decision that it really was. This was the loop they were always going to be in, no matter what else they did. She had given it 120 percent, so it felt right. It felt like the right thing for everyone in this scenario, despite the love. Is love enough? Often, it isn’t.

I don’t think he’s coming back this season to throw another rock at her window. But just to be clear, is there an ellipses on Carrie and Aidan, or is that chapter over and you are putting them to bed?

ROTTENBERG We don’t like going to bed. We want to stay up and play! (Laughs.) I’ll just say, keep watching and you’ll let us know what you think.

ZURITSKY For the time being, the chapter is closed.

ROTTENBERG So many people have been so angry and sick of her putting up with this, and he’s driving people crazy — and a lot of that took me by surprise, just the extent of it was really powerful. But up until the bitter end, we kept wanting them to do everything they could to work and be OK.

When she comes back up to her apartment and sees the meat is out, we wanted her to start by apologizing and thanking him for being patient. I have a husband who is not unfamiliar to me having to work a lot and me not always being back when I say I will, and you could argue that he was within his rights to be hurt and angry, and maybe furious. We really wanted to give them both a fighting chance. We wanted her not to be so obtuse as to be indignant. We wanted her to acknowledge, “Thank you for understanding. I was in a tight spot.” We’ve all been there, where you feel stuck. So that moment when she crawls into his arms, we kept reaching these crossroads where we were like, “That could have been OK. Maybe he was annoyed, but he could have shaken it off.” But he couldn’t shake it off.

ZURITSKY The smoke, especially.

ROTTENBERG It was visceral reminders of old scars.

ZURITSKY I remember when we were pitching this out early and Michael came up with that line [Aidan says to Carrie when she smells like cigarette smoke]: “Get out. Go shower.” We were all a little bit like, “[Gasp] That’s awful.” But that’s what it had to be.

Julie, you mentioned that you understand people critiquing Aidan, but that you were surprised to the extent. What do you make of the passionate reaction to this season, and how do you compare it to that of previous seasons?

ROTTENBERG It’s a reminder of how passionately people identify with these characters, feel protective of these characters…

ZURITSKY Feel that they’re friends with these characters and that each one of them lives in them, so when the characters behave in ways that they don’t, it’s affronting. It is, as Julie said, a very special relationship that people have with these characters. It fascinates us, and I think it makes us feel really fortunate that that relationship exists.

Is there anything you have read that made you feel like viewers missed the point, or something that felt misunderstood or unfair?

ZURITSKY I already mentioned it, but the one that really stuck out for me was people calling Aidan abusive for his attitude about medication.

ROTTENBERG And Elis, remind me, was the idea there that they felt he was “abusive” because he was not allowing his kid to be medicated?

ZURITSKY Yes. It was like, “Your kid has a medical condition. How can you keep the medicine away from your kid? He’s abusing him!” As if there’s a consensus.

Another example was the outcry over you allegedly killing LTW’s (Nicole Ari Parker) dad twice. We ran a clarification from production that the first death was her stepdad; the death this season was her father. Were you surprised people caught on to that in such a big way?

ZURITSKY That was surprising to me. It’s the close viewing, but that comes back to the relationship that people have with the show.

ROTTENBERG You want close viewers. We know our viewers are smart and paying attention, and you want that. Then sometimes, the thing that you wish people would pay attention to, they don’t. You just never know. It’s sort of like being a parent. You bring these children into the world and then you hope for the best. And then you’re lucky enough, as we are, to have a big audience, a very passionate and expressive audience who is not afraid to express their feelings.

Do you end this season in a way that opens the show to continue for season four, and have you already had talks or ideas for more? When I spoke with MPK and Sarah Jessica, they said if they have ideas and people are watching, they want to keep going. Is that how you each feel?

ROTTENBERG With this show, as you can see, every time we think it’s over, it’s not over. So we treat every season as if it could be the last, with the hope and knowledge that it might not be the last. It’s sort of like spending time with a really good friend that you know you may not see again, but it’s always an open question.

ZURITSKY And I have a list in my phone of season four ideas! We can keep going, because living in New York, you’re just flooded by ideas all the time. So, I am prepared.

Are there three words you would use to tease the rest of the season?

ROTTENBERG Surprise, fun and freedom.

ZURITSKY Those are great. I have no notes.

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And Just Like That season three releases new episodes Thursdays at 9 p.m. on HBO Max.